Tuesday, February 9, 2010

Doug Horne and Jim Fetzer Part IV


Part IV

Fetzer - This is Jim Fetzer, your host on “The Real Deal,” returning to conclude my conversation with Doug Horne, the author of the five volume masterpiece, “Inside the ARRB.”  If you’ve had the remotest interest in JFK you don’t want to miss Doug’s splendid work, go to Amazon.com you can find it at a bargain basement price, obtain these volumes, read them, study them, they are accessible, they make the complex aspects of the case completely intelligible.  They are beautifully written.  Just for the sake of those who may be unaware several features of the events in Dealey Plaza had to be removed from the film, this drove the process of alteration we have been discussing.  They include that William Greer the driver actually when he turned from Houston onto Elm swung the vehicle out too widely and nearly hit a concrete abutment there.  We know from multiple witnesses reporting it, including Roy Truly who was the supervisor of the employees at the book depository-

Horne - Correct.

Fetzer - who explained how Truly [he means Greer] had performed this feat, and how Greer had swung out too wide, nearly hit the abutment and then tried to pull the limousine back toward the center, and then Truly said to his astonishment pulled the vehicle to the left and to a halt.  Now this was necessary to ensure that JFK would be killed as a former Marine Corps Officer who used to supervise recruit training at Edson Range at Camp Pendleton where Lee Oswald took his own marksmanship training I can assure you that hitting a moving target is a difficult feat and in this case the bullets that had been fired already while they had hit JFK in the back about five an a half inches below the collar and to the right of the spinal column and another shot had hit him in the throat, a bullet that had actually passed through the windshield, the man was not yet dead. The Umbrella Man standing to the side and pumping his umbrella is giving a visual signal to shooters at as many as six different locations that the target is still alive and they should keep shooting.  So, we have Greer bringing the vehicle to a halt for just a couple of seconds, he is hit twice in the head, one of which drives him forward, Jackie eases him up, he is hit in the right temple with a frangible, or exploding bullet, his brains are blown out to the left rear.  That explosion of brains to the left rear which hits Officer Hargis to the left rear of the limousine so hard that he thought that he himself had been shot had to be removed because it was devistating evidence of a shot from in front and therefore of a conspiracy.  Therefore, that had to be removed, and in doing so they removed other events that were taking place at the same time including Mary Moorman and Jean Hill stepping into the street where Jean had called “Mr. President, look over here!  We want to take your picture.”  So, Mary could take her Polaroid.  Plus motorcycle Officer Cheney on the right side, who when the vehicle came to a halt motorred forward to tell Chief Curry that the president had been shot.  John Costello with whom I co-edit the online journal for advanced study of the death of JFK at assassinationresearch.com has colated the eyewitness reports from Dealey Plaza, it is a brilliant piece of research that is now fundamental to understanding what happened given that we appreciate that the film is a fabrication.  If you want to know what happened you have to place greater reliance on the witnesses than on the film which indeed is even a principle that is manifest in courts of law where photographs and films cannot be introduced without the authentication that those films or photographs were the ones actually taken by the person who had the camera or held the projector.  So, you’ve got to take into account that the legal principles in this case have been reversed for the presumption of authenticity of the film has been used to dismiss the reports of a massive blow out to the back of the head by more than 40 witnesses who were well positioned and thoroughly competent including, for example, the physicians at Parkland hospital.  So, in order to-

Horne - (Bless him, Doug actually tries to get a word in.) Jim? Jim?

Fetzer - eliminate all of this they had to reconstruct the film which it turns out we now know based upon Doug Horne’s masterful work was done at Hawkeye works at Rochester labs, home of KODAK.

Horne - And this is a great segue for me Jim to make one final point about Hawkeye works.  In 1997 the only witness we had that had ever talked about a secret CIA lab at KODAK HQ was Homer McMahon, the head of the color lab at NPIC.  But this year, (2009/2010) and this just tickles me to death, it is so wonderful, Dino Brugioni, who was at “Event Number One,” at NPIC, the night before Homer McMahon got the film to make briefing boards from, Dino Brugioni, who was basically the number two imaging guy at NPIC for decades told Peter Janney in Massachusetts in one of the, in several of the seven interviews, that, oh yeah, he says Hawkeye Works, yeah, I know all about it, I visited the place, several times, and he says you know you had to put on a hat and cover up your hair, and a white coat and sticky shoes, it was a clean room, and, oh yes, they could process motion picture film, and in fact, he literally said when Peter Janney asked him from our list of questions could they process motion picture film, Dino said, “They could do anything.” And that was in the context of answering the question about could they process motion pictures.  So, we now have two very credible people, formerly employed at NPIC, the CIA’s photo analysis lab that -

Fetzer - (says the word “Yes.” but not in reference to anything Doug just said, almost like an instruction to someone in the room he’s in.)

Horne - not only attest that Hawkeye Works existed, but that it could process motion picture film and could literally do anything.

Fetzer - There is a new guy who has shown up on the Education forum run by John Simkin, a guy named Jerry Logan who has been offering the argument that the research that the Hollywood group has been doing has not been with what they consider, or what he considers to be the best available images which are those from the MPI set, 4 by 5 transparencies that are held by The Sixth Floor Museum and it’s interesting that when he makes that argument he doesn’t point out the serious flaws that exist with that transparency set as Scott Lederer and I pointed out in our color photo section in “The Great Zapruder Film Hoax,” entitled which film is the Zapruder film on page 31 we observed, “in spite of the expertise that was applied to the production of this enhanced version,” talking about now the MPI version “we have discovered, as others, including John Costello PhD, have found several significant short comings, specifically the MPI version A has reversed the order of frames 331 and frame 332, B does not include what ought to be frames 341, 350, and 486, and C does not include frames 155 and 156, and D does not include frames 208, 209, 210, and 211.  These deficiencies became apparent in multiple comparisions with the Groden pristine version which includes the missing frames.”  And I would like to point out Doug, that that was work that Scott Lederer, my son-in-law and I did together.  Scott was primarily responsible for making those discoveries which during the Duluth conference when I presented this material were independently corroborated by John Costello that there are all of these serious flaws in the MPI set.  But even more-

Horne - Yeah, it’s even worse.  We all know that, for the listening audience the Zapruder family knowing that their film was about to be taken commissioned MPI, a video company, to photograph on large format film four by five inch color positive transparencies each frame of the Zapruder film in 1997.  I was present in the Archives when that occurred.  It took three and a half days to do the job.  I witnessed a lot of confusion during the process which would explain the frames that are reversed and missing from their product.  But, it’s worse than that, they manipulated these images digitally before re-creating it as a movie.  So, the images on their DVD and their videotape from 1998 are dark, they are muddy, they are not in good focus, and there are aspect ratio problems as well.

Fetzer, - Yes, and John Costello has removed the aspect ratio distortion, and also the pin cusion distortion in what is known as the “Costello combined edit,” which is available absolutley free at no charge, the Archives will charge nearly $800 if you wanted to obtain a film such as Sidney obtained for the sake of the Hollywood researchers.  You can obtain a better version free on assassinationscience.com if you visit there.  I would like to make two other points, Doug, one is that you, with your characteristic understatement, said of the Hollywood studies of the film that it wasn’t scientific but I would point out that observation, measurement, and experiment are fundamental to science and what has taken place here was an expirement by creating an enhanced digital version of the film and then subjecting it to very focused observation by professional experts, that was an experiment, and that is scientific, and it is like other features you have observed dispositive of the issue of whether or not the film is a fabrication.

Horne - Thank you.

Fetzer - The other point I would make is that while they want to appeal to this other slide set as though it had somehow greater authority because of the generational difference over the forensic version that Sydney and the Hollywood experts have been studying David Mantik idependently went into the Sixth Floor Museum-

Horne - Yes

Fetzer - and studied those slides and discovered the very same features, the same artifacts of alteration-

Horne - Yes.

Fetzer - that the Hollywood experts have discovered-

Horne - Yes, Jim, let me interject here I cannot [over] emphasize how important that is.  I’m so glad you brought that up.

Fetzer - And I [will] just say that those who are the anti-alterationists really I think have run out of room, there’s no place to run they have tried to duck and hide they have lied, and cheated, and deceived the American people (quite emotional now, like he’s crying) they have attacked the best researchers doing the most important work (voice rising) relentlessly, viciously, without justification, completely unscrupulously, and I want to conclude here, Doug, by reading two passages and invite your comment here because they seem to me to be perfect on page 1350 and 1351, “Patterns of Deception.”

“Patterns of fraud and forgery--the destruction or disappearance of original evidence, followed by the substitution of tainted evidence--appear consistently throughout this case.  We have seen it in the case of the “magic bullet,” CE399; in the case of the alleged murder weapon; in the case of the autopsy photos and X-rays; in the case of the president’s brain; in the case of the evolving autopsy report; and now we see it again in the case of the Zapruder film, “the” pre-eminent assassination record.  Why should it surprise us that it has happened to the Zapruder film as well? It shouldn’t surprise anyone who is not sticking his head in the sand and ignoring what is wrong with the film.  Josiah Thompson reiterated, in 2003 at his lecture given at Cyril Wecht’s assassination conference in Pittsburgh, that while in many murder cases we often do not know why a crime was committed or even who committed the crime, we always know what happened.  he remnded his 2003 audience of what he had said ten years previously in Chicago: that only in the Kennedy assassination are we unsure about what actually happened.  I submit to the reader that this astute observation of Thompson’s, made twice, ten years apart, is extremely significant and supports my contention that the biggest problem in coming to grips with the Kennedy assassination is fraud in the evidence.” 

Fetzer - But, I would point out that since 1992 when I organized a research group consisting of the best qualified individuals to ever to study the case, a world authority on the human brain who is also an expert on wound ballistics; a PhD in Physics who is also board certified in radiation oncology; a physician who not only was present at the treatment of JFK in trauma room one but was [also] responsible for that of his alleged assassin two days later in trauma room two; a legendary photoanalyist who testified before the House Select Committee and advised Oliver Stone; and a PhD in electro-magnetism who has done the most brilliant work on the film; that from the beginning we have been sorting out the authentic from the inauthentic evidence, and you have a vast repository of our findings, where it turns out that when you seperate the authentic from the inauthentic which we have done in “Assassination Science,” in 1998, “Murder in Dealey Plaza” in 2000, and “The Great Zapruder Film Hoax” in 2003 it becomes very simple to sort out what actually happened, and where Doug Horne’s work, I’m very proud to say corroborates, fills out and verifies what we have discovered in the series of those studies beginning in 1992.

Horne - Yeah, in a sense that’s what my book is about.  It’s about identifying where there is fraud in the evidence, explaining that that’s why the case has never come together like a normal homicide case, and then sorting out, examining what we have left, after we throw out the fraud.  

Fetzer - And you know a very sad aspect of this is the very man who made that point is one who has been in the forefront of perpetrating the fraud and deception involved in maintaining the integrity of the film which as I observed in the beginning if you accept as a [fact], the premise, that the film is authentic then, of course, it turns out to be logically impossible to reconstruct what actually happened in Dealy Plaza.  And my concern, and the reason I’ve been so critical of this man, over and over again, attacking one phoney argument after another was not to disredit him personally but to discredit his arguments which has the consequence of discredting him because he is the one who has advanced one phoney argument after another. It was my unfortunate position to be able to discern through his fraud and deception because we both have PhDs in philosophy and the arguments he was making were so shabby, violated so many basic principles of logic in terms of the straw man argument and special pleadings, citing only one side of the case and the ad hominem which has become his greatest area of specialization that it was clear to me that he was not a seeeker after truth notwithstanding the fact that in the beginning I absolutely idolized the man, I even told him so, during a session we had when we first met in 1993 in Chicago when we were drinking Scotch at 4:00 o’clock in the morning. A lot of our listeners, Doug, may not realize what happened to JFK, why it happened to JFK, and I want to mention a book or two that are important in filling that out.

Horne - Sure.

Fetzer - There is a wonderful book by James Douglass entitled, “JFK and the Unspeakable.” 

Horne - Oh yes.

Fetzer - It provides a  masterful study of the development of this man from a Cold Warrior to a statesman for peace and how he antagonized one siginificant, powerful interest group in the country after another, these not only included the CIA with which he became disillusioned in the aftermath of the Bay of Pigs where they grossly mislead him; also the mafia which may have had some agreement with his father but where Jack or Bobby would never have agreed that they would lay off the mob and where Bobby was breaking, cracking down relentlessly bringing more indictments and convictions than ever in the history of the Cosa Nostra where even J. Edgar Hoover had denied its existence until the Joe Valachi hearings; the Joint Chiefs of Staff who were disillusioned with Jack because he had not invaded Cuba against thier unanimous recomendation; he had gone ahead and signed an above ground test ban treaty against their unanimous opposition, and now he was pulling our forces out of Vietnam where they believed a stand had to be taken against the expansion of international Communism; the Texas oilmen were upset because they feared he was going to cut their oil depletion allowance; the bankers were worried because he was going to reform or abolish the Fed; he had already instructed the Treasury [Dept.] to print millions of dollars of United States notes, I remember as a young Marine Corps officer holding one of these in my hands Doug-

Horne - Oh really?

Fetzer - And noticing it had a red embossed imprint and said United States Note instead of green and Federal Reserve Note.  And, of course J. Edgar wanted to remain as Director of the CIA [FBI] Jack had planned to retire him with fanfare; Lyndon wanted to become president of all the people but the opportunity was slipping through his fingers the afternoon of the assassination there was to be a vote in the senate of the United States on the Bobby Baker scandal-

Horne - Oh! That afternoon? Wow. 

Fetzer - that everybody, that afternoon Doug, that everyone believed was going to so tarnish Lyndon that Jack would not be able to run with him again.  Richard Nixon had already explained to the Dallas Morning News that published in the paper the morning of the assassination that he did not believe that Jack would be able to run with Lyndon again.  And we know that Jack had also informed his executive secretary Evelyn Lincoln that that [LBJ being on the ticket as VP] was not going to happen.  It was very clear from the research I have done going beyond what you have done here this masterful study of the medical and the photographic evidence, especially the film that Lyndon Johnson and J. Edgar Hoover were key players in this event-

Horne - Well, I agree, and Jim, let me interject here.  Chapter 15 and 16 of my book both make the case very strongly that while I don’t believe those two men were the masterminds of this plot they were necessary enablers.  They were absolutley essential to its success.  So, I believe they both had foreknowledge and  they both are just as guilty as the people who actually dreamed up the operation and-

Fetzer - I’m very glad you mentioned that Doug and I am looking forward to reading the rest of your work.  It is simply splendid.   In a nutshell the Secret Service set him up.  We have more than 15 indications of Secret Service complicity. The CIA, military, mafia, and anti-Castro Cubans took him out.  The FBI was used to cover it up.  J. Edgar and Lyndon were principals with financing from Texas oilmen.  It’s a completely disgusting chapter of American history towards the clarification of which you, Doug, have done so much good.  Let me read one more paragraph here.  Finally, and this is reflecting on the discovery that the film is altered, that the chain of custody was broken and all of that

“The unassaible implications of those two events, when viewed in tandem, allowed what was a possibility in my mind to become a fact.  The Zapruder film is an alterred film; its alteration by the U.S. government at a classified government lab, with the assistance of the world’s foremost photographic company, is the strongest indicator we have along with the evolving autopsy report and the creation of a tainted autopsy photo and X-ray collection of how powerful and relentless the coverup of this assassination was in 1963.  And the government’s direct involvement in heavy-handed manipulation of key physical evidence in this case is the surest indication that President Kenney’s death was an ‘inside job’ that he was eliminated by the national security state because he was viewed as a dangerous ‘change agent’ who was ‘rocking the boat’ too much at the height of the Cold War.” (p. 1351)

Horne - Yep.  And some critics have asked me, “Well, what are you up to? What are you trying to accomplish here?”  Well, what I am trying to accomplish here is to educate the American people about their real history.  You can’t have a democracy that works if you have people that have swallowed a fairytale.  Or that are still having one rammed down their throats, rather unsucessfully I might ad.  And so if you love our democacy and you love our Constitution and [if] you want to protect it the way to protect it is to explain the ways it was subverted in the very recent past so that it doesn’t happen again.  That is what this is all about.

Fetzer - And what I love about your mind Doug it resonates with me, you follow logic, and evidence, you look at the evidence and you derive the consequences that follow from the evidence.  There are those out there, you refer to them as “the old guard,” who still think that the film is authentic and it’s our strongest proof of a conspiracy because of the motion back and to the left, back and to the left that was so emphasized in Oliver Stone’s brilliant film, which I continue to insist is the most accurate, comprehensive and complete presentation of what actually happened in Dealey Plaza on November 22nd, 1963 ever presented to the American public through the mass media, but, it’s an illusion, it’s an artifact, it’s an effect of the way the film was alterred and recreated and we cannot base our findings about the assassination of the President of the United States on fabricated evidence.

Horne - No we can’t, and that applies to the autopsy report, and that applies to the dishonest photos of the back of the head taken at the autopsy, that applies to the altered skull X-rays, and that applies to the Zapruder film, that’s right.

Fetzer - And something that we haven’t been able to discuss this evening but perhaps we’ll have a chance on another occassion is the glaring inconsistency between the medical evidence and the photographic evidence, in particular the Zapruder film.  Because we know, for example, Robert McClelland’s diagram of the massive blow out to the back of the head we know, physician after physician after physcian at Parkland described that blow out and the extrusion of cerebral and cerebellar tissue, we know that the brain shown in diagrams and photographs in the National Archives shows an intact cerebellum and minor damage to the brain, when the man had a third to a half of his brains blown out in Dealey Plaza.  The massiveness of this deception including the fact that the brains were blown out to the left rear and impacted Officer Hargis so hard he thought he himself had been shot, as well as the discovery of the Harper fragment on the grass was indelible evidence that something was massively wrong with the film, and for not putting two and two together and exposing the fabrication that something was grossly inconsistent here I personally fault Josiah Thompson for the gross inadequacy of his work which appears to me to have been designed to obsfucate rather than to clarify the evidence.

Horne - Well, you know, that’s really the only thing in his book that still stands up.  He gave the most eloquent description of the impact debris travelling to the left rear with great force in his book.  That’s the one part of his book that still stands up and yet he never connected the dots right, he never questioned in his book, if this is so if all of the debris travelled to the left rear, if 90% of the debris with great force, then he should have pointed out that that’s inconsistent with the film being authentic and not showing damage to the back of the head, but he didn’t point that out and I find that unbelievable. 

Fetzer - Here’s something else I find unbelievable he is now disavowing his double hit theory that Jack’s head moves forward at great speed for a frame and then backward with tremendoud force.  If you assume the film is authentic you should be committed to that double hit theory, not only did Josiah have the strongest part of his book devoted to that with graphs and so forth, with great precision but independently Richard Feinman at Cal Tech when confronted by David Lifton noticed the same double hit aspect and indeed it was independently verified by ITEK corporation so that when Josiah Thompson now is seemingly trying to disavow every indication of conspiracy that was published in his book I have to ask how far are you willingly to go Josiah in denying the obvious truths that have been demonstrated independent of you? You can’t get away with it any longer.

Horne - Well, let me, if I can just take one or two minutes-

Fetzer - You got it.

Horne - Along that same line, let me talk about something else that can’t be denied, you mentioned that David Mantik had examined the MPI color transparencies at The Sixth Floor Museum of the Zapruder film frames on November 20th, that’s correct, of just the last year.

Fetzer - (as if clarifying, or answering to someone in the room he’s in) David Mantik.

Horne - And I want to point out that David, David Mantik, has seen, who has seen the high definition scans, examined by the Hollywood research group, he verified to me, in no uncertain terms, that in terms of the blacking out of the back of the president’s head that those features, present in the dup negative that the Hollywood group is studying, they are not only present on the MPI slides [transparencies] but they are even more startlingly clear.  So, yes, yes, in that one respect the transparencies at The Sixth Floor Museum are important but they are important in a different way than they are being discussed on the internet, I mean they verify the accuracy and the viability of the dup negative that is being used as a research tool, they verify that the anomolies in the dup negative obtained from the Archives are valid, because they are also present on a first generation set of color transparencies. So, I say, bring it on! Yeah, let’s,  I would love to see The Sixth Floor Museum let those things be digitally scanned, and everyone will see that, they will not only see the same blacking out of the back of the head they will see that it looks even more clear!

Fetzer - Doug, I just want to say as a summing up of your masterful, masterful work in relation to alteration, it is game, set, and match.  I cannot thank you enough for coming on the show, and I look forward to doing it again.

Horne - Thanks, Jim, and I look forward to it too, thanks very much. 

Fetzer - My great pleasure.  This is Jim Fetzer, your host, thank you all for listening.

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